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Permalink Reply by Tim on January 28, 2010 at 1:57pm

Mary Z.; You are not the only one who doesn't understand. It sounds like a pipe dream from somebody who recently started CPAP.

There are practical reasons for the current layout of a flow generator, optional humidifier, 6 foot plastic hose, and mask. Technology changes could simplify this, but this is the current state of the art.

There are very good and practical reasons for using a plastic hose as the interface between the machine and the patient. Some of them are: It electrically isolates the patient from the power line (both AC power and lightning). It provides a robust connection that is quick and easy to connect and disconnect -- even in the dark when barely awake. It is inexpensive and easy to replace. Water condensation is easily handled by the hose. It is lightweight. The connectors are standardized within the industry and with other respiratory equipment.

Power and water (if the humidifier is used) have to be provided. Currently, power is provided by an electrical connection, either from commercial power or from a battery. There could potentially be an alternative way to power the flow generator, such as a clockwork mechanism. An alternative type of power could be provided to the heated humidifier, perhaps an alcohol or butane cartridge. Humidifiers require about 250 ml of water per night. A head worn or pillow mounted humidifier would add a lot of additional complexity to prevent spilling; perhaps a wick type system would work. Whether the power is provided by electricity or alternative power source, none of these would be practical for a head worn device.

Providing power and water through an umbilical system was suggested; this would be infinitely more complex and expensive than a simple plastic hose and it wouldn't provide any advantage.

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Permalink Reply by Linda Becker Harris on January 28, 2010 at 2:18pm

Oh perfect! Yes, this was what I was envisioning. http://www.cpap.com/cpap-machine/Hoffman-Laboratories-BreatheX-CPAP...

It's good to know that it's been manufactured already, even if it's not currently available. It'd be lovely if they were working to improve on the materials... I would totally get one if it became available again. Also, I'm pretty sure I don't use 250 ml a night in my humidifier... My setting is 3 and I only fill to a little above the 25% fill line, and always have water left in the morning.

Tim said:

Hoffman Laboratories used to make the BreatheX which was a wearable CPAP. There is information about it available on the web. It appears that it either didn't work very well or not that many people were interested.

Look at the sizes of the smallest CPAP flow generators available right now; you are not going to be able to get much smaller than that with current technology.

I will stay with the hose for the foreseeable future.

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Permalink Reply by RockRpsgt on January 28, 2010 at 2:38pm

tim don't most ideas start off as pipe dreams? I know that I have many. hopefully one day i will be able to make one of them happen. Like the velcro timeout wall. I want to wallpaper one of the small walls in my house with velcro so that I can stick my youngest daughter to it when she is bad. This will keep her from walking away when my wife and I are not looking. While not practical it is a solution to a common problem with 2 year olds. Ok so i bought 20sq ft of velcro for nothing. I will eventually find something to use it for. That damn wife of mine.

My point is that there are no bad ideas. If Franklin, Edison, or Tesla had listened to some of their critics life today would be different. I do not think that we would be communicating in such a manner. We need to support both in and out of the box thinking. What you call a pipe dream someone else is already working on. the proof is in your link. 2 heads are better than 1, and this site has 3500. Surely we should be able to find some solutions tocommon problems if we work together.

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Permalink Reply by 99 on January 28, 2010 at 4:35pm

i have the answer to rain out

bore i 1/16 hole for water to drain at the begining of the plastic tube

recalabrate the air leak rate and that is it

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Permalink Reply by Andy on January 28, 2010 at 4:38pm

Hi Linda,

First off, welcome to SleepGuide and to CPAP! In spite of the hassle of the tubing, etc., CPAP does work, and has given many of us relief.

Now, as to your idea? Cool! I'm a techie/engineering type, and I've been thinking of various ways to improve and modify things since I started on CPAP about 3 months ago.

Your idea of a "wireless" CPAP is a great one to think about. While it may not be completely wireless at this point, maybe there's a way we can make it less obtrusive?

I had to laugh at one comment. Your idea is a "pipe dream?" It seems to me it's a non-pipe dream...

Seriously, don't be discouraged by any negative comments. I can't tell you how many things I've successfully engineered and put into actual, usuable products despite supposed "experts" who told me it couldn't be done.

When people tell me "it can't be done" that only means that they can't do it!

Keep up the great ideas!

.

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Permalink Reply by Linda Becker Harris on January 28, 2010 at 5:43pm

Thanks for the encouragement, Andy and everyone else. Negative thinking doesn't bother me; I'm funded by a government grant in my day job and deal with stuck-in-the-mud thinkers all the time. ;) Really glad I got the heads up about this site from Mike - it's been so helpful to me just over the last day!

CPAP has been helping me (and my husband, who especially loves that he can't hear my machine or me snore!), but I've got other health issues as well. Just found out the Cymbalta I'm on for fibromyalgia can suppress REM so have been tapering my dosage down to try yet another medication, and I've been very happy with the improvement in sleep I've gotten so far from that as well as the CPAP. My sleep studies last month showed that I got only 2.8 minutes of REM combined over both nights (it was all on the second night, about 30 minutes before they woke me up at 6am), so yeah, quality sleep is a big deal to me. Every little bit helps, and the CPAP has been wonderful so far - just extremely annoying with the tubing!

For the record, a velcro timeout wall would be VERY useful, both at home and at many workplaces. I want one of those, too. :)

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Permalink Reply by Julie Camacho Monzon on January 28, 2010 at 5:58pm

If it could be done, I would definitely be interested!

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Permalink Reply by Tim on January 28, 2010 at 6:17pm

First, I have lived long enough to know how fast technology improvements are made; when I was born, nobody had a color TV, and TV remotes and color TVs were not common until I was in my 20's. Second, I have a technical background; I built my first crystal radio when I was 9 years old, I started building electronic projects when I was in junior high, and built my first computer using a 6500 processor (when the concept of a personal computer was still a pipe dream). I am still building my own computers. I am a senior UNIX system administrator and still do computer hardware installation and repair (I don't have to do it, I have people who would do it).

I did not say that I thought that a self contained CPAP mask could not be made someday, I was pointing out the obstacles that have to be overcame with current technology -- and I have pointed out some possible alternatives. I also gave some of the reasons that the plastic hose is currently being used and will be used in the foreseeable future -- until a fully self contained CPAP mask is made. It may be possible to reduce the diameter of the hose, but I suspect that it would have been done already if a smaller diameter hose would allow the required air flow.

The problem is not really in the materials that are available; very strong, lightweight materials are available. More work is needed to be done on materials that are used to seal the mask to the face; but this applies to both conventional masks and self contained masks. Electronics are very good now and would be adequate for a self contained CPAP mask, they are also still rapidly improving.

The problems are in the power technology, blower technology, and humidifier technology. All of these need to be reduced from the size of a large clock radio to the size of a pack of cigarettes -- while keeping the noise level down. Battery technology is improving and a lot of resources are working on designing better batteries. It may be that a power source other than batteries will work for a self contained CPAP mask -- I have pointed out a couple of possibilities in a previous post. Small DC motors have improved drastically in the past decade or two and there are incentives to make even smaller and more efficient motors. The blower technology needed to make an ultra miniaturized CPAP blower will be a huge challenge.

I chose 250 ml of water for a humidifier because that seems to be about what many humidifiers hold. I personally do not use a humidifier. Perhaps the humidifier problem could be solved in the first models of self contained CPAPs by not including a humidifier.

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