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Zeo monitor and slow-wave sleep
My last two sleep studies tweaked my CPAP pressure but clearly show that I get no deep (slow-wave) sleep. No wonder I've been getting dizzy since January! I'm using Gabapentin and feel better, but still am woefully sleepy. Two sleep docs have run out of ideas. I'm thinking of trying the Zeo sleep monitor. Here's my hypothesis.
I'd like you-all to poke holes in my plan, if you would, please.
I have found that 'an hour of sleep before midnight is worth two hours of sleep after midnight' ever since college days. Recently I find that I feel much better if I turn off the light and go to sleep around 9pm. That is socially not very appealing to my wife, however, who likes to sleep in. (I waken at 5am no matter how dizzy I feel or when I go to bed.)
I use an ADAM circuit http://www.cpap.com/productpage/adam-circuit-headgear.html and a Puresom Ruby chin strap (mounted upside down - so that it pulls my chin up instead of back) with my CPAP. I think that I could squeeze another headband in there somewhere, allowing the Zeo sensor access to my forehead. (It is a bit hard to get a good side view with all that stuff on my head.)
In theory I don't see why the Zeo monitor could not read the brain waves and give nearly as good a readout as the professional sleep equipment. My breathing is controlled now, but my sleep is not restful.
I figure that monitoring my brain waves and manually recording how I feel in the morning, plus any other relevant observations might lead me to better quality sleep.
Views: 393
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 99 on
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i recently had a ecg which showed that i was having silent heart attack and was prescribed a spray under the tongue
perhaps you are chasing the wrong problem to get a restored and rested sleep
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Permalink Reply by Mary Z on
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The only person who gave a review of the Zeo was essentilly not impressed and planned to sell it after a short while. I think the consensus has been that it's not very good at accurately judging sleep states- mainly confusing awake and asleep at the beginning of the night. I have not read anything positive that would convince me this device would help optimize your CPAP therapy. Sorry.
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Permalink Reply by RockRpsgt on
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Jim how old are you? There is a natural degrading of SWS as we age. I believe that it mutates into a different kind of stage 2 sleep. The reason for this is as we get older our growth hormone secretion gets less and less. to qualify as a stage 3 (delta wave) there must be a 75Hz amplitude requirement. This is also the range at which most scientist and researchers believe that our growth hormone is secreted. Your lack of stage 3 most likely is completely normal.
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Permalink Reply by Banyon on
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Jim, It looks like you don't have a CPAP machine with software that provides reports showing the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of your CPAP therapy.
IMO, you would be much better served to take the Zeo money and spend it on a CPAP machine with software. Your therapy may not be allowing you to breathe as well at night as you would like.
After using the software for one night, I did not want to ever be without it again.
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Permalink Reply by Jim Ludden on
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I certainly appreciate all the straight feedback. Just what I'm looking for.
As to slow-wave sleep: the sleep doc explained that the definition is sharp, but reality is not so sharp. I would be less worried about getting the officially-designated sleep if I had not felt really sleepy and dizzy, growing since January. I'm old enough to experience the change in hormones. I also had my family doc check my heart (I can rapidly climb 50' of stairs).
The past three nights I've gone to sleep closer to 9 pm. I've also been far less dizzy during the days and not so sleepy. It would be comforting to think (or have a measurement tell me) that I was finally getting some deep, slow-wave sleep. That would encourage me to keep going to bed early.
If I weren't still working (and enjoying work) I'd say, "bag it" and retire to my frequent naps. But the pay (and health insurance) do come in handy, so I'll try to get more restful sleep!
As to the Zeo, as a scientist it might be a fun experiment. But kind of expensive, if I just push the device into the corner after looking at the clock a few mornings. Sigh.
Thanks again for all the feedback :)
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Permalink Reply by Rooster on
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Jim, You fail to mention the most important point - Banyon's suggestion of a data-capable CPAP machine. ???
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The thing is Jim, that you may not ever get that validation from a sleep report. Not from Zeo, or a PSG. After the age of 35 stage 3 diminishes with age to nothing in most people. This varies in degree from person to person. Just because the report says no stage 3 does not mean that you are not getting deep sleep. Our bodies require deep sleep much more than REM. This is why we get deep sleep first. ask your sleep doc how much delta activity was seen in your study.
I would also equate the dizzy feeling to a lack of REM sleep. Going to bed earlier allows you to get more sleep cycles. This would give you longer REM cycles in the morning which willl clear your mind. As banyon and Rosster suggested a fully data capable machine would help you much more than the ZEO. Just my opinion. As a practitioner I would love to get my hands on one of them.
Jim Ludden said:I certainly appreciate all the straight feedback. Just what I'm looking for.
As to slow-wave sleep: the sleep doc explained that the definition is sharp, but reality is not so sharp. I would be less worried about getting the officially-designated sleep if I had not felt really sleepy and dizzy, growing since January. I'm old enough to experience the change in hormones. I also had my family doc check my heart (I can rapidly climb 50' of stairs).
The past three nights I've gone to sleep closer to 9 pm. I've also been far less dizzy during the days and not so sleepy. It would be comforting to think (or have a measurement tell me) that I was finally getting some deep, slow-wave sleep. That would encourage me to keep going to bed early.
If I weren't still working (and enjoying work) I'd say, "bag it" and retire to my frequent naps. But the pay (and health insurance) do come in handy, so I'll try to get more restful sleep!
As to the Zeo, as a scientist it might be a fun experiment. But kind of expensive, if I just push the device into the corner after looking at the clock a few mornings. Sigh.
Thanks again for all the feedback :)
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The sleep lab is certainly an environment that is not conducive to sleep! The first one (with this doc) got me to bed way past my sleepy time and it took almost 2 hours tossing and turning before I slept.
j n k said:Zeo is not as accurate as a sleep study, and it is not sold to be used as a medical device in conjunction with a medical therapy. But it can't hurt.
The question is, What would you do with the information, if Zeo showed no SWS? Would your doctor take it as evidence of anything and change what he prescribes? If not, the money might be better spent figuring out how to make your sleep as restorative as possible with the tools at hand.
Sadly, some effectively-treated OSA patients continue to experience residual sleepiness that doesn't seem to respond to therapy. Medication can help. But I would personally, as a fellow patient, view that as a separate issue from the SWS as not recorded in titration PSGs. If the pressure is jumping around and the lab/center is a strange sleep experience, the lack of SWS may be a reflection of those things more than a reflection of how much SWS you get in your own bed.
If a Zeo showing SWS would put your mind at ease, getting one might be worth it. If you hope to use what it says as evidence for your doctor, it might not. But that is only one man's opinion.
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Banyon,
I do have an old machine (two, in fact). But the machine is doing its part.
The equipment industry is more than happy to have insurance buy me yet another CPAP machine, but I don't see any benefit to that. I even take it camping and run it off the car battery. Strangely, I sleep better in the tent. That was the impetus to get to the root of my dizziness.
Banyon said:Jim, It looks like you don't have a CPAP machine with software that provides reports showing the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of your CPAP therapy.
IMO, you would be much better served to take the Zeo money and spend it on a CPAP machine with software. Your therapy may not be allowing you to breathe as well at night as you would like.
After using the software for one night, I did not want to ever be without it again.
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I have not heard of a data-capable CPAP before. I'll certainly check it out. However, it doesn't measure my sleep, only air pressure and volume. (At least, as an engineer, I cannot discern what else it could measure.) Got a brand name I can research?
Rooster said:Jim, You fail to mention the most important point - Banyon's suggestion of a data-capable CPAP machine. ???
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Resmed S9 or the Respironics PR1
Jim Ludden said:I have not heard of a data-capable CPAP before. I'll certainly check it out. However, it doesn't measure my sleep, only air pressure and volume. (At least, as an engineer, I cannot discern what else it could measure.) Got a brand name I can research?
Rooster said:Jim, You fail to mention the most important point - Banyon's suggestion of a data-capable CPAP machine. ???
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In theory I don't see why the Zeo monitor could not read the brain waves and give nearly as good a readout as the professional sleep equipment. My breathing is controlled now, but my sleep is not restful.
The Zeo is not an EEG machine. It is an actigraphy machine. The zeo does not measure brain waves. Instead it measures trends. your post tell me that your SBD is not under control. Without another sleep study or a data capable machine there is no way that you can tell me that I am wrong. Right now you are pulling straws.
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