"please keep me updated about oximeters "
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Zeo + CPAP Data? (as well as a 'confession')
Hello,
I love this forum. Great activity and it's very cool to see how supportive everyone is of one another.
I have a 'confession' to make. Well, it's not really a confession because I don't feel guilty about it, but I'm not a CPAP user nor do I suffer from any other sleep disorder (fortunately, and knock on wood).
I'm here, rather, as an observer. The company I work for is building a patient management and support program to help Home Medical Equipment providers do a better job with their CPAP users.
One of the challenges we are currently working on is all about how to help HMEs use data from CPAP devices in a practical way. There is a LOT of helpful data collected on these devices, but getting practical use out of the data is difficult. So we're exploring the problem.
In that process, I've become more acquainted with Zeo. It's quite interesting because the device is relatively affordable, includes a ton of relevant data, and most of the data collected is not available on a typical CPAP machine -- so it fills in some holes.
I'm curious if there are folks in here who are using a Zeo while they are on CPAP therapy. Even more curious to see if there are folks who actually look at data from both the Zeo and their CPAP.
Views: 720
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mary Z on
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There are those who would debate the accuracy of the data from the Zeo. I have never used it and from anecdotal reports would not buy one. It's interesting that instead of using the wealth of information from the machine, plus subjective reports from CPAP users you are suggesting adding another machine. Who are you really working for? You are not asking about the HMEs can help us, but are essentially selling zeo.
Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but I think this is just dressed up spam. You don't sound like a sleep professional from this post.
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Permalink Reply by Doug Hudiburg on
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Thanks Mary. Wow. Didn't mean to sound like I was selling at all. I don't work for Zeo, just really interested in how data can be used to improve outcomes and experiences for CPAP users.
I'm not selling anythinig and didn't mean to give that impression.
I develop products and the best products that help the most people come from deep understanding of the challenges and frustrations of your audience. So, strange as it may seem, I'm just here to learn and to help where I can.
I see a lot of complaints in this forum and others about the lack of support patients sometimes get from their HMEs. The company I work for is trying to solve that problem. Our customers are in very close touch with their patients. If there is a problem, they know it and they work with the patient to solve that problem.
As I said, I'm not here to sell, but to understand.
So, yes. You are reading me wrong. Completely wrong, because you made some assumptions that don't even remotely apply to me.
I checked 'professional' on my profile because I believe I was asked to pick a 'category' or 'type' when I registered. That description was the closest I could find to what I do. If you have a 'product developer' or 'problem solver' or even 'marketing professional' I would have chosen a more accurate category.
I sent you a friend request because I do hope we can be friends.
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So, Doug, you are a product developer or problem solver and are only interested in those folks using Zeo, you are not a medical professional, I believe "other" is the only correct term. In fact you are trying to sell Zeo to a population that would do anything to improve their quality of life. You are taking advantage of people on the forum. I don't think I'm taking you wrong. You haven't contributed anything to the forum. You haven't even asked how "data can be used to improve outcomes and experiences for CPAP users". There is a wealth of data available from the machine and software. There is a wealth of info available from the forum members.You haven't asked what we want from our DME'S, you just jump in here telling us we need a zeo. You aren't trying to do anything to improve relationships between DMEs and clients. You have your own agenda and it is not about helping us. Nothing you have said indicates helpfullness advancing relationships with our DMEs.
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As I said, I have no financial interest in Zeo whatsoever, I'm just curious about how people use it and how it relates, if at all, to CPAP therapy. If you choose to take that as a lie, so be it, but I maintain that it IS the truth.
I have a lot of experience with device software and data. In fact, I've worked with two major manufacturers of CPAP machines to help them improve their software AND to make it more accessible to patients.
The frustration caregivers have is it is very difficult to get sleep staging data. The CPAP data simply doesn't show it, yet it's a critical clinical measurement. If you can't see brainwave activity, you really don't have the whole picture of what is happening with the patient. If Zeo provides accurate brainwave monitoring -- enuough to do accurate sleep staging, the benefit to OSA patients could be significant.
I have changed my profile to "Other" and "Someone I care about has Sleep Apnea" I hope that removes my offense.
Beyond that, I guess the only thing left to do is apologize and resolve the issue.
If you are a moderator of this forum, and feel that my post is offensive or a veiled attempt to take advantage of the members of this forum, please delete it. I won't take offense.
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Permalink Reply by James @ Intus on
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I've read this 3 times now and don't see what Doug has done wrong here, so let's skip the argument and talk about his questions. Like what Doug did, let me also paint a brief picture of my background. Being with Intus I am actively involved in distributing Zeo in Europe. So yes, I do sell Zeo but that's not the issue here.
Doug asked about people using Zeo to complement CPAP data. I look at Zeo data, and at CPAP/BiPAP all day long and know a few patients using Zeo data to help understand their CPAP data. Here is one such example I wanted to point out to Doug:
http://hypnagogia.squarespace.com/blog/2011/11/10/zeo-cpap-bipap.html
He overlays the Zeo sleep stage data (clinically validated to be about 75% accurate compared with PSG) with the ResMed data, correlating sleep stage changes with therapy performance metrics in ways you couldn't do with the machine's data alone.
For example, many people have REM related OSA. They often benefit from an Auto-CPAP as the OSA kicks in during REM sleep stages. You couldn't tell in which sleep stage you are based on CPAP data, not based on actigraphy data, not on oximetry data and not even with multi-channel respiratory diagnostic devices like Embletta etc. That's where Zeo can help add a dimensions which can be useful to SOME people. If you have a sleep stage dependent sleep disorders, it can give a great insight. Many parasomnias are sleep stage dependent for example.
REM-OSA aside, I also know of people using Zeo to check which mask gives statistically the best sleep. There are probably other ways you can use it too.
So I agree with Doug, it can be difficult as therapy providers (like us) to gather the right data to make meaningful suggestions to all patients. In certain scenario's, Zeo data could be useful indeed for CPAP users. By titrating the therapy (CPAP, OAT etc.) according to good data, you can help improve patient comfort and compliance. The patient doesn't even have to buy Zeo necessarily either, the therapy provider could loan one for a period in order to validate therapy.
It's great that industry people take in interest in innovation with a goal of improving patients' quality of life.
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Ok, I give up here. I'm sure the owner of the forum has no problem with your postings, Doug. I'm sorry I derailed your initial thread. If you'll be kind enough to repeat it here, I'll let the forum members give you their answers and stay out of it..
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Permalink Reply by RockRpsgt on
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I am not a Zeo fan. My experience with it shows innaccuracies in it's ability to differentiate between stage REM and wake. I will say that my use and experiments have been limited. I have requested one to be used in conjunction with a PSG. They have never responded yes or no. I do however find the technology fascinating. I have often wondered how one would work with a Watch-pat. The 2 systems by themselves don't seem like they would do enough. Together though? Both are actigraphy devices looking from 2 different directions.
I don't undersand the lack of practical use for current CPAP data. Both Resmed and Respironics have put out some amazing software packages for their machines. Both are even oximeter capable. Teaching them how to read it may be beneficial. Just getting them to look at something other than compliance data would be amazing.
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The Zeo is an actigraphy based system.
James @ Intus said:I've read this 3 times now and don't see what Doug has done wrong here, so let's skip the argument and talk about his questions. Like what Doug did, let me also paint a brief picture of my background. Being with Intus I am actively involved in distributing Zeo in Europe. So yes, I do sell Zeo but that's not the issue here.
Doug asked about people using Zeo to complement CPAP data. I look at Zeo data, and at CPAP/BiPAP all day long and know a few patients using Zeo data to help understand their CPAP data. Here is one such example I wanted to point out to Doug:
http://hypnagogia.squarespace.com/blog/2011/11/10/zeo-cpap-bipap.html
He overlays the Zeo sleep stage data (clinically validated to be about 75% accurate compared with PSG) with the ResMed data, correlating sleep stage changes with therapy performance metrics in ways you couldn't do with the machine's data alone.
For example, many people have REM related OSA. They often benefit from an Auto-CPAP as the OSA kicks in during REM sleep stages. You couldn't tell in which sleep stage you are based on CPAP data, not based on actigraphy data, not on oximetry data and not even with multi-channel respiratory diagnostic devices like Embletta etc. That's where Zeo can help add a dimensions which can be useful to SOME people. If you have a sleep stage dependent sleep disorders, it can give a great insight. Many parasomnias are sleep stage dependent for example.
REM-OSA aside, I also know of people using Zeo to check which mask gives statistically the best sleep. There are probably other ways you can use it too.
So I agree with Doug, it can be difficult as therapy providers (like us) to gather the right data to make meaningful suggestions to all patients. In certain scenario's, Zeo data could be useful indeed for CPAP users. By titrating the therapy (CPAP, OAT etc.) according to good data, you can help improve patient comfort and compliance. The patient doesn't even have to buy Zeo necessarily either, the therapy provider could loan one for a period in order to validate therapy.
It's great that industry people take in interest in innovation with a goal of improving patients' quality of life.
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I think I was totally out of line in my opinions. Anything that brings our support team together and more effeciently is a good thing.
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@RockRpsgt No, Zeo is not actigraphy based at all. It is EEG based. Zeo contains no movement sensors whatsoever. You have electrodes (in the form of highly conductive silverized fabric) at FP1 & FP2 (the forehead) which pick up the brainwaves emitted. It transfers this to the electronics pod on the headband which beams it to the Zeo App or Bedside display.
So Zeo is not actigraphy, it is much closer to PSG in terms of technology as it looks at neurofeedback directly.
Validation study here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2869.2011.00944.x... They have done a number of validation studies comparing it against PSG, which is probably why they didn't move forward with your offer.
When you found Zeo to be inaccurate, what did you compare it with? How did you know you were in REM/Wake when Zeo told you the opposite?
WatchPAT is (part) based on actigraphy: http://www.itamar-medical.com/WatchPAT/FAQ.html It attempts to differentiate sleep stages by indirect means like movement plus heart rate, autonomic nervous system etc.
Combining Zeo's neurofeedback data with WatchPAT's cardiovascular and autonomic nervous system data would probably indeed be quite a powerful system, improving on both Zeo and WatchPAT's own PSG based correlation.
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Thanks James @ Intus and Rock. That's good information. I hadn't really thought of the Zeo as a loaner to the patient, but that would make it functional in the US HME business model.
@James, thanks especially for the link. That kind of integrated report with machine data, EEG data and oximetry data would be amazing to have for the majority of patients.
RockRpsgt said:I don't undersand the lack of practical use for current CPAP data. Both Resmed and Respironics have put out some amazing software packages for their machines. Both are even oximeter capable. Teaching them how to read it may be beneficial. Just getting them to look at something other than compliance data would be amazing.
I didn't mean that the data isn't useful. The data from CPAP machines is abundant and very detailed. The challenge lies in helping HMEs use the data in a practical way -- in other words, they have the data, the problem is the action that comes from the data. It is simply not possible to scrutinize all of the data from every patient. So, we need to evolve the systems so that HMEs can easily identify and manage patients who are having trouble.
But that's not really what this thread is about. I mainly wanted to see if people are using Zeo and, if so, how. I've learned a lot already... thanks!
@Mary. Say no more. In today's world there are so many spammers and scammers... I understand why you might be suspicious. I really appreciate your additional comments.
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I compared it with PSG data. I wasn't about to let their no stop me. Zeo could not accurately tell the difference between wake and REM. REM sleep makes up 25% of your night's rest. This combined with their own admitting to a 25% chance of a bad reading is just to high for me to justify the expense. Their are many discussions on this topic here on the forum. I also have a problem with any of these manufacturers not allowing outside companies the opportunity to evaluate their products. TV adds are filled with products endorsed by docs and trials bought and paid for by the companies investors.
Measuring two EEG locals does not make for EEG data for one. In truth the Zeo measures the Fp, T, and occipitol sites. None of which are used to measure sleep. However the O channels are used to measure stage Wake.
I was told by Zeo to think of this machine more as actigraphy than EEG. Just like the HSTs I believe this technology is amazing. I just don't believe it is ready for release to the consumers. The push for the almighty dollar has superceded the technology in both cases.
James @ Intus said:@RockRpsgt No, Zeo is not actigraphy based at all. It is EEG based. Zeo contains no movement sensors whatsoever. You have electrodes (in the form of highly conductive silverized fabric) at FP1 & FP2 (the forehead) which pick up the brainwaves emitted. It transfers this to the electronics pod on the headband which beams it to the Zeo App or Bedside display.
So Zeo is not actigraphy, it is much closer to PSG in terms of technology as it looks at neurofeedback directly.
Validation study here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2869.2011.00944.x... They have done a number of validation studies comparing it against PSG, which is probably why they didn't move forward with your offer.
When you found Zeo to be inaccurate, what did you compare it with? How did you know you were in REM/Wake when Zeo told you the opposite?
WatchPAT is (part) based on actigraphy: http://www.itamar-medical.com/WatchPAT/FAQ.html It attempts to differentiate sleep stages by indirect means like movement plus heart rate, autonomic nervous system etc.
Combining Zeo's neurofeedback data with WatchPAT's cardiovascular and autonomic nervous system data would probably indeed be quite a powerful system, improving on both Zeo and WatchPAT's own PSG based correlation.
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