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Having nightmares after starting and using cpap
OK this may seem strange but has anyone else noticed that after starting or during cpap treatment, that they are dreaming more that before? I have always dreamt alot all though my life but as my disorder got worse i can only guess that it stopped as i wasnt reaching that stage of sleep very often. Now Im dreaming every night and I find it to be quite emotionally disturbing I plan to bring it up at my next doctors appointment as its having an effect on my sleeping.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RockRpsgt on
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Stage REM is what we refer to as the 'dream stage". REM is typically the stage of sleep most affected by apnea. Now that you are getting good sleep again you are experiencing REM rebound. This experience will continue until your sleep balances itself out or your sleep debt is paid off. This process can take up to 6 months. Be pt as everything will find balance again.
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Permalink Reply by Saz RPSGT on
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It is possible that you still having "breathing events" while in REM also. If so, then dreams can possibly be disturbing.
It is possible that you require a higher pressure overall or just for REM sleep. It's worth getting ahold of your sleep report and seeing what your AHI and RDI numbers are for REM vs. NREM sleep at the pressure you are currently using. If you didn't have REM at that pressure or your AHI and/or RDI is higher in REM, then that is a likely culprit.
Saz
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Jsaz can you explain more this theory of events causing disturbing events. Are you saying that apnea can cause nightmares?
Saz RPSGT said:It is possible that you still having "breathing events" while in REM also. If so, then dreams can possibly be disturbing.
It is possible that you require a higher pressure overall or just for REM sleep. It's worth getting ahold of your sleep report and seeing what your AHI and RDI numbers are for REM vs. NREM sleep at the pressure you are currently using. If you didn't have REM at that pressure or your AHI and/or RDI is higher in REM, then that is a likely culprit.
Saz
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Permalink Reply by Andy on
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I haven't been dreaming in years, but in the last three weeks since I started CPAP, I've been dreaming almost every night.
In my case, they've been pleasant, and I wake up more contented.
Then again, there was that one with the monsters...
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Interesting theory about the events during REM affecting the dreams.
Do you know if any studies or articles on this?
On the surface, it makes sense that this would happen.
I had been wondering why insomnia accompanies OSA. I would think that it would be the opposite. Since I'm getting so little sleep, wouldn't I be seeking more sleep, not less? Why would I have insomnia, if I'm falling asleep during the day?
I did some research, and talk with my doctor about this. What I found was that, due to OSA, our brain becomes negatively conditioned to avoid sleep. It's almost like our brain says "Hey, when I sleep, I stop breathing. I like breathing, so I'd better try not to sleep."
As for OSA affecting the content of dreams, here's a thought.
I've experienced dreams where an outside event, such as the phone ringing, became a part of the dream. What always fascinated me is that in the dream there was always a "back story" about the event. So the phone ringing in my dream was in context with events that happened before the phone rang.
But how could that be, if the phone ringing was simply integrated into an "already-in-progress" dream? Are our dreams running on sort-of a "delay system" such that we become aware of an outside event, integrate that event into our "dream story", and then incorporate it?
It would seem to make more sense that the phone ringing would be perceived as an odd event during a dream. So why wouldn't our dream story be something like, "Hey! Where the heck did that phone come from?"
I'd love to have the opportunity to take over a sleep lab some night, and toy around with this stuff with some volunteers...
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Yes, but not just obstructive apnea. Any sleep disordered breathing event that stresses the body, so hypopneas and RERAs as well. You are right, it is just a theory, but my anecdotal evidence is AMAZING. ;^)
You've possibly noticed it as well. Patients waking from REM after having SDB, they're sweating and have a spiked heartrate. "I was having the worst dream." Countless patients woke from these situations feeling they were being attacked and choked. They settle down and we get them back to sleep.
By morning they awake from that last REM period completely titrated (hopefully) breathing very well and awakening natually. Dreams at this point are reportedly pleasant.
I don't know this as fact. It does seem worthy of looking into though with regards to the AHI/RDI in REM vs. NREM at the prescribed pressure though. Just my opinion.
Saz
Rock Hinkle said:Jsaz can you explain more this theory of events causing disturbing events. Are you saying that apnea can cause nightmares?
Saz RPSGT said:It is possible that you still having "breathing events" while in REM also. If so, then dreams can possibly be disturbing.
It is possible that you require a higher pressure overall or just for REM sleep. It's worth getting ahold of your sleep report and seeing what your AHI and RDI numbers are for REM vs. NREM sleep at the pressure you are currently using. If you didn't have REM at that pressure or your AHI and/or RDI is higher in REM, then that is a likely culprit.
Saz
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I don't know of any studies on this, but I haven't looked for them either. :^)
Insomnia is often not occuring with OSA. Rock can back me up on this one. Patients will have back to back OSA (meaning they stop breathing for 10-30 seconds, wake for a 3-10 second period, and back to 10-30 second apnea) for 2-3 hours solid. Then we enter the room to apply CPAP and they say, "what, I haven't slept at all!"
The perception of the sleeping person is that they are constantly awake. In reality they are falling asleep very well, not insomnia at all. What your doctor said about your mind avoiding sleep seems true. It's just a theory as well, but I personally feel it's valid.
Dreams and dreaming are really a mystery though. I'm with you on taking over a sleep lab for "evil" experiments though.
Saz
Andy said:Interesting theory about the events during REM affecting the dreams.
Do you know if any studies or articles on this?
On the surface, it makes sense that this would happen.
I had been wondering why insomnia accompanies OSA. I would think that it would be the opposite. Since I'm getting so little sleep, wouldn't I be seeking more sleep, not less? Why would I have insomnia, if I'm falling asleep during the day?
I did some research, and talk with my doctor about this. What I found was that, due to OSA, our brain becomes negatively conditioned to avoid sleep. It's almost like our brain says "Hey, when I sleep, I stop breathing. I like breathing, so I'd better try not to sleep."
As for OSA affecting the content of dreams, here's a thought.
I've experienced dreams where an outside event, such as the phone ringing, became a part of the dream. What always fascinated me is that in the dream there was always a "back story" about the event. So the phone ringing in my dream was in context with events that happened before the phone rang.
But how could that be, if the phone ringing was simply integrated into an "already-in-progress" dream? Are our dreams running on sort-of a "delay system" such that we become aware of an outside event, integrate that event into our "dream story", and then incorporate it?
It would seem to make more sense that the phone ringing would be perceived as an odd event during a dream. So why wouldn't our dream story be something like, "Hey! Where the heck did that phone come from?"
I'd love to have the opportunity to take over a sleep lab some night, and toy around with this stuff with some volunteers...
.
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Permalink Reply by Edwin Kiessling on
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It is called rem rebound. wait a week or two and it should go away
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It makes perfect sense that the "fight or flight" sensation of the brain would produce bad dreams in thinking that there was a threat. This also goes into the theory that through our dreams we may be rehearsing events that scare us such as death, fights, or other stressful things in our lives. i definately see a need for more research regarding the type of dreams a person is having related to the type of sleep they are getting. i want in.
Sleep state misconception I believe is one of the most common disorders seen in a sleep lab. usually it ties in with SBD, Insomnia, or a movement disorder. I have pts tell me all of the time "I haven't slept, how could you have seen anything?"
Andy I have done some interesting experiments with my family and dreams using the tv. you should try it. You can somewhat manipulate dreams by picking certain tv shows to leave on why people are sleeping. I do not suggest this as the tv is bad while you are sleeping, but i was able to induce nightmares in myself by preprogramming my tv to come on during a horror marathon. i spent most of that night running for my life. I have also done experiments with the food network, sci-fy, and the local news channels with some pretty amazing effects.
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Permalink Reply by susan mccord on
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During BOTH my sleep studies, I had the same thing happen, thinking I hadn't slept when in fact I had. Said the same thing to both techs--"How do you know what's happening when I haven't been asleep?" They both assured me that I HAD been, but it sure didn't seem that way to me.
Also, rememer a few weeks ago, I reported that I was dreaming again for the first time in forever? Well, in the past couple of weeks I've been having problems with my CPAP power and with, I just found out, more leaks again. Got the power unit changed out and it's working fine now. But while reading this thread, I realize I'm back to not dreaming!!!! Masks are a problem now too--I've lost a significant amount of weight since I was diagnosed, which makes my face much thinner--my DME guy tried about 7-8 masks of varying sizes on me this week--NONE of them fit without leaking, including that brand new foam-lined one. So I'm still using my full face which is fine when I'm awake but leaks when I'm sleeping. We messed around adjusting it at DME and kinda improved it, but my card kept showing BIG leaks. What happens if my face is too small for ANY mask?????
Susan McCord :-)
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Congrats on the weight loss! If it's been 20 lbs or more then you may need to be retitrated to a lower pressure. Ah...the benefits of CPAP.
Full face masks are tough to fit on people with thin faces. I actually came upon something that may help.
www.mvapmed.com has a "mask gasket putty" stuff that is supposed to help with leaks. A co-worker and I just found it in the new MVAP catalog. It looks like it's putty wrapped in silicone so that it's reusable. This may help you out.
I also found some chinstraps that are great for staying in place. One is a PURESOM adjustable chin strap for $18.95, the other is just called the RUBY chin strap for $16.95. Our lab purchases some supplies from these guys.
susan mccord said:During BOTH my sleep studies, I had the same thing happen, thinking I hadn't slept when in fact I had. Said the same thing to both techs--"How do you know what's happening when I haven't been asleep?" They both assured me that I HAD been, but it sure didn't seem that way to me.
Also, rememer a few weeks ago, I reported that I was dreaming again for the first time in forever? Well, in the past couple of weeks I've been having problems with my CPAP power and with, I just found out, more leaks again. Got the power unit changed out and it's working fine now. But while reading this thread, I realize I'm back to not dreaming!!!! Masks are a problem now too--I've lost a significant amount of weight since I was diagnosed, which makes my face much thinner--my DME guy tried about 7-8 masks of varying sizes on me this week--NONE of them fit without leaking, including that brand new foam-lined one. So I'm still using my full face which is fine when I'm awake but leaks when I'm sleeping. We messed around adjusting it at DME and kinda improved it, but my card kept showing BIG leaks. What happens if my face is too small for ANY mask?????
Susan McCord :-)
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Thanks, Jason. I'm DEFINITELY gonna buy that putty stuff and try it out. I like that it's reusable AND that it's wrapped in silicone. Can't quite figure out how it works but I'll find out when I get it.
Can I buy one of those chin straps? If so, where? And which one would you recommend?
Also, thanks for the weight loss support! It IS more than 20#, closer to 30#.
Susan McCord
Saz RPSGT said:Congrats on the weight loss! If it's been 20 lbs or more then you may need to be retitrated to a lower pressure. Ah...the benefits of CPAP.
Full face masks are tough to fit on people with thin faces. I actually came upon something that may help.
www.mvapmed.com has a "mask gasket putty" stuff that is supposed to help with leaks. A co-worker and I just found it in the new MVAP catalog. It looks like it's putty wrapped in silicone so that it's reusable. This may help you out.
I also found some chinstraps that are great for staying in place. One is a PURESOM adjustable chin strap for $18.95, the other is just called the RUBY chin strap for $16.95. Our lab purchases some supplies from these guys.
susan mccord said:During BOTH my sleep studies, I had the same thing happen, thinking I hadn't slept when in fact I had. Said the same thing to both techs--"How do you know what's happening when I haven't been asleep?" They both assured me that I HAD been, but it sure didn't seem that way to me.
Also, rememer a few weeks ago, I reported that I was dreaming again for the first time in forever? Well, in the past couple of weeks I've been having problems with my CPAP power and with, I just found out, more leaks again. Got the power unit changed out and it's working fine now. But while reading this thread, I realize I'm back to not dreaming!!!! Masks are a problem now too--I've lost a significant amount of weight since I was diagnosed, which makes my face much thinner--my DME guy tried about 7-8 masks of varying sizes on me this week--NONE of them fit without leaking, including that brand new foam-lined one. So I'm still using my full face which is fine when I'm awake but leaks when I'm sleeping. We messed around adjusting it at DME and kinda improved it, but my card kept showing BIG leaks. What happens if my face is too small for ANY mask?????
Susan McCord :-)
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