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Permalink Reply by sleepycarol on October 24, 2009 at 11:26pm

Maybe Rock a little OCD going on there?

LOL!!!

Sorry if I offended anyone with my remark to Rock. I had some relatives that were bricklayers in the city years ago. I could see one of them making that joke, and I couldn't resist. :) :)

By the way Rock, they made a ton of money doing it, of course the rest of the family never saw it and considering all things it was probably drank one shot at a time. :)

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Permalink Reply by RockRpsgt on October 24, 2009 at 11:35pm

At one time i was 3rd generation union ironworker. I built cell towers for about 5 years. hard to offend me. I tend to drink my shots 2 at a time with no chaser. Those Canadians make a damn fine whiskey. I do understand why Molette got mad. the other discussion got shut down for what typically happens in all of our discussions from time to time. I do not see anything wrong with the inuendos. There is nothing wrong with slapstick adult humor. Molette did nothing wrong in my eyes in the previous closed discussion. I have a great Ironworker motto, but in light of what I just said I'll have to save it for another discussion.

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Permalink Reply by D. W. Conn on October 25, 2009 at 5:13am

Rock this is just the start... I have 2 desk tops and 2 lap tops I use a desk top and lap top at once...My house looks like a call center with wife's computer , my daughter is an IT specialist and she has 3. Books on sleep, cardiology on every surface. There is even a shelf in the dining room with Neuro books.

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Permalink Reply by Duane McDade on October 25, 2009 at 12:54pm

I have a sleep disorder ! SLEEP DEPRIVATION, all sleep technicians do. It gets harder and harder to get the sleep you need, because mother nature trys to give you all your REM in the 1st cycle. When you wake up after ....4-5 hours you're not sleepy anymore. The end result is you miss out on a lot of deep sleep, and your body and its functions start to suffer.
It's a sleep tech's lot in life, I guess. SAY LA VEE ( Thats French Mollette)

Rock Hinkle said:

I do not have a diagnosed sleep disorder. yet i am fascinated by mollette and jnk. Hmmm maybe i do have a disorder. is it wrong that i like to listen when they talk?

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Permalink Reply by RockRpsgt on October 25, 2009 at 3:38pm

Nice D.W.! My wife is also an IT major. Makes life a little more interesting. We may not have the best electronics, but they work really well.

D. W. Conn said:

Rock this is just the start... I have 2 desk tops and 2 lap tops I use a desk top and lap top at once...My house looks like a call center with wife's computer , my daughter is an IT specialist and she has 3. Books on sleep, cardiology on every surface. There is even a shelf in the dining room with Neuro books.

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Permalink Reply by RockRpsgt on October 25, 2009 at 3:39pm

Don't worry about me Mollette. I can take a punch.

Mollete said:

Rock Hinkle said:

I do not see anything wrong with the inuendos.

OK then, it's settled, let's reopen the dating thread. I'd post my photos here, but I think it would be hazardous to Rock's health if his wife saw him talking about his "mistress" alongside pictures of me in my underwear.

mollete

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Permalink Reply by Mary Z on October 25, 2009 at 5:52pm

Mollete,
Would you please elaborate about REM in the first cycle increasing with sleep deprivation being incorrect. Might not Mother Nature cram extra REM starting in the first cycle in a chronically sleep deprived person? I am not a sleep professional, but think I may have read something about this in _The Promise Of Sleep_ by Dr. Dement. I know ordinarily this would not be true. If I have it right doesn't REM increase as the night goes on in a normal sleep pattern? Does your job involve working at night?

Thanks,

Mary Zimlich

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Permalink Reply by RockRpsgt on October 26, 2009 at 1:31am

Sleep is so dam sexy. Apnea is proof that we can live with REM deprivation to a point anyway. A person can only go about 72 hours without SWS before they pass out. Bad or fragmented sleep generally causes REM deprivation as it is typically the last stage in the cycle. Lack of sleep causes SWS deprivation.

"Rather, it is far more likely that the recovery phenomenon is SWS, so the statement "miss out on a lot of deep sleep" is also incorrect"

SWS is the deepest sleep. To have SWS recovery you would have to "miss out on deep sleep".

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Permalink Reply by Mary Z on October 26, 2009 at 10:52am

Thank you, Mollete,
Mary Zimlich

Mollete said:

The implication that sleep deprivation requires or may result in REM rebound would only hold true if there is REM deprivation. The scenario that the above poster proposes requires simultaneous REM rebound and REM deprivation, which makes no sense. Rather, it is far more likely that the recovery phenomenon is SWS, so the statement "miss out on a lot of deep sleep" is also incorrect.

BTW, in re: "The Promise of Sleep", read the case study on p. 257. That anectdotal example shows how REM deprivation isn't the thing that makes you tired anyway.

Lastly, it would probably be more accurate to describe shift work as a circadian rhythm disorder rather than "sleep deprivation".

mollete

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Permalink Reply by Duane McDade on October 27, 2009 at 6:25am

YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND MULLETE! TOO MUCH REM IN THE 1ST CYCLE DOES EFFECT YOUR SLEEP. I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU READ. CHECK YOU BOOKS TO SEE IF AGE IS A FACTOR. AND GET OUT AND HAVE SOME FUN FOR A CHANGE, IT'S NOT TOO LATE!

Mollete said:

Duane McDade said:

...mother nature trys to give you all your REM in the 1st cycle...

That is incorrect information.

mollete

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Permalink Reply by RockRpsgt on October 27, 2009 at 8:31am

I am not a normal shift worker. i tend to get 6-7 hours of sleep on the days I work. My question is this: If we get more REM in the later cycles of our sleep, then why would a person who only slept 4-5 hours not see REM deprivation? Does a typical shift worker's (short sleeper) sleepcycles evolve to fit the needs of their schedules? or do they learn to function on 1-2 less sleep cycles? Averaging 4-5 hours of sleep has to reult in the loss of something. Thus by the nature of sleep there would be some sort of rebound.

Duane the wine cooler still cracks me up.

Mollete said:

Mary Zimlich should have said:

What difference does it make if this is a "circadian rhythm disorder" or not.

(At least) two things. The shift worker is now working against a host of factors that contribute to "normal" sleep (such as melatonin, cortisol, environmental influences, etc.), and interestingly, most data shows that the typical shift worker only sleeps 4-5 hours, so it could be easily argued that the sleep pattern of the above poster is "normal". Whether it's "healthy" or not is perhaps another issue.

Hinkle said:

To have SWS recovery you would have to "miss out on deep sleep".

You are confusing "recovery" with "rebound". Since SWS is generally preserved in shift workers, it's %TST appears to be relatively increased.

mollete

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Permalink Reply by Mary Z on October 27, 2009 at 1:35pm

Thanks, Mollete,
I need to go back and read _The Promise of Sleep_ from the beginning paying more attention to the studies done about circadian rhythm, biological clock, and phases of sleep to name a few things. Admittedly I am a complete lay person on the subject of sleep and need to actually "study" the material in the book rather than just read it without understanding one concept before going on to another. Though I'm trying to understand the whole picture, that seems to be impossible without education about sleep and sleep disorders. I guess I should start with understanding normal sleep before trying to take on sleep disorders.

I haven't even gotten my own sleep pattern and OSA under control and continue to work closely with my doctor
to decrease my apena events. I sleep usually 9-10 hours a night and don't want to get out of bed in the morning. I take Provigil to stay awake during the day, it also prevents me from napping so I can sleep at night. I understand (from my doc) that I am still working off a sleep deficit and will be until we get my OSA under better control. This is one area where I do not try to "nurse" myself. I can see my knowledge base is not such that I could make informed treatment decisions. Luckily I have a good doctor who communicates well with me and has brought me a long way.

While I'm on this subject, is treated sleep apnea less dangerous than untreated sleep apnea given the same number of AIs during the night? I vary widely from a low of AHI 11.9/ AI 3.6 to AHI 24.2/AI 10.7, admittedly down from my AHI of 25 before getting a BiPAP machine. Sorry for going under the microscope, I'm a bit discombobulated this afternoon.

Mary Zimlich

Zimlich should have said:

What difference does it make if this is a "circadian rhythm disorder" or not.

(At least) two things. The shift worker is now working against a host of factors that contribute to "normal" sleep (such as melatonin, cortisol, environmental influences, etc.), and interestingly, most data shows that the typical shift worker only sleeps 4-5 hours, so it could be easily argued that the sleep pattern of the above poster is "normal". Whether it's "healthy" or not is perhaps another issue.

Hinkle said:

To have SWS recovery you would have to "miss out on deep sleep".

You are confusing "recovery" with "rebound". Since SWS is generally preserved in shift workers, it's %TST appears to be relatively increased.

mollete

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