"please keep me updated about oximeters "
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Does CPAP Weaken Tongue?
I'll preface all this by saying SleepGuide.com is probably the only place on the internet where you can have an intelligent discussion about anything that might cast CPAP in a negative light, given the financial interests of the other venues out there for education and support (read: people who want to sell you CPAP). But I went to my doctor the other day and we got into a debate about whether if my next sleep study shows that my weight loss has reduced my AHI to acceptable levels, whether I should get off CPAP. I argued against it, since my perception is that everyone has obstructed breathing at some point when they sleep and that positive airway pressure can only help keep the body oxygenated and healthy, even if the level of obstruction does not rise to the clinically approved definition of an apnea or hypopnea event. The doctor disagreed, saying that reliance on CPAP reduces muscle tone in the tongue and that it can actually make you worse off. He likened it to wearing a cast on your foot that keeps the foot immobilized -- sure that is needed at times, but when you don't use those muscles, you lose them.
What do you all think?
Views: 2305
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 99 on
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i concur with banyon where is the evidence
Banyon said:Mike, Is your doc just flapping his tongue or does he actually have some evidence to back up this statement? Sounds like it is something he made up.
Anecdotally I can say CPAP made my tongue stronger. CPAP gave me renewed vigor and energy to stay awake longer and interact more socially which meant more exercising of my tongue. haha
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Permalink Reply by MZH on
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I'm thinking age has more to do with tongue and mouth muscle tone than CPAP. But strengthening the airway muscles can only help, not hurt. Just saying.
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Permalink Reply by Mack D Jones, MD, SAAN on
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As a neurologist with a special interest in neuromuscular disorders, I can say that CPAP does not cause weakness of the tongue. Not using CPAP to prevent all apneas can result not only in weakness and even paralysis of the tongue from stroke, but as everyone on this is fully aware, a Pandora's Box of other deadly maladies.
Bottom line: Stick with CPAP, it's still the gold standard for the treatment of OSA.
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Permalink Reply by Kevin Barthelemy on
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Just rent a copy, and watch it. If it doesn't help you to understand the reference, not to mention the cold war, it should at least make you laugh!
Mike said:uh oh. need clarification of the reference to Dr. Strangelove. Not to date you, but I'm 38 years old, and that's a little before my time.
Jeffrey Donaldson said:If I didn't know any better, Id thought that I was listening to General Ripper from the movie Dr. Strangelove. With that said, I've been using cpap for 16 years and my tongue is as strong as it was then. Don't ask me to prove it :-)
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Respectfully, Dr. Jones....CPAP can be an excellent treatment for many sufferers. If it comes down to being an apeac or not an apneac then I'd say remarkably so. 'The Gold Standard' is actually lining the makers of CPAP machines pockets without little serious debate going on to explore the alternatives. As you should know, CPAP machines have some downsides too.
Question, are permanent changes in facial structure considered a minor side-effect ?
http://www.apneasupport.org/permanent-changes-in-face-from-cpap-mas...
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Permalink Reply by jim allAn on
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That's one reason I recently sent away for a pulse oxometer. I have been waking up lately so tired I can't wait to finish breakfast so I can relax and possibly go back to sleep. It will probably be like my blood pressure. My Dr. wont believe I have a problem because she will never see it. Nor will she believe anyone else, hosp. Dr. or clinicians. It makes me so mad I could scream.
Marcia Herman said:I will attempt to remember to post what happens at the visit! I don't want to sleep w/o my machine either; I hate waking up with 02 levels in the low to mid 80s. Ugh.
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I once had a rented recording pulse ox prescribed by my GP for an overnight oxygen study. I hated even using it; it was old and looked like it hadn't ever been cleaned. Unfortunately the good ones cost about $600, not $100. I'd like to buy one but don't know what an good intermediate priced one is. Anyone know?
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Jay,
If and when it occurs in adults, I'd consider it to be a "minor side effect." You have choices. Would you rather be alive and healthy with some facial changes on CPAP or avoid CPAP to protect your face and be an obese diabetic with high blood pressure, stroke, heart attack, cardiac arrhythmia, heart failure, sudden cardiac arrest, stroke, dementia (Alzheimer's Disease), depression, bipolar disorder, psychopath (and the list goes on), or dead.
BTW, read "Deadly Sleep," Is Your Sleep Killing You? In it I discuss some of the alternatives to CPAP.
Jay Polatnick said:Respectfully, Dr. Jones....CPAP can be an excellent treatment for many sufferers. If it comes down to being an apeac or not an apneac then I'd say remarkably so. 'The Gold Standard' is actually lining the makers of CPAP machines pockets without little serious debate going on to explore the alternatives. As you should know, CPAP machines have some downsides too.
Question, are permanent changes in facial structure considered a minor side-effect ?
http://www.apneasupport.org/permanent-changes-in-face-from-cpap-mas...
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Dr. Jones,
Many of the symptoms and resulting disease states are accurate, but you're bordering on 'fear-mongering'. You sound like a medical extremist to me and none of your intimidating language would change my personal views. You're obviously 'educated' by the degree title behind your name, but it's questionable by the use of your language. OSA undoubtedly has a strong impact on mental deterioration, but many other factors are involved (fat-free diets, aluminum toxicity, etc)
It's not too uncommon to come across 'types' of your perspective during my career, so I wisely learned to seek other complementary sources of treatment (in addition to CPAP). I plan to get off of CPAP eventually after my UARS is finally alleviated.
Reconsider your presentation.
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Jay Polatnick said:Joe,
Tongue exercises can only be done while conscious.
http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-apnea/news/20090507/tong...
Regards,
Jay
I don't understand your answer.
i understood from the former postings that the question was "does using ac/pap stop your tongue exercising while you are asleep"
My reply said if your tongue relaxes when you are asleep and sometimes can be the cause of an Apnea how can it be exercising if it is dropping back into your throat.
i did not ask about a question about tongue exercises
joe
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Okay, sorry about the misinterpretation.
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Permalink Reply by Banyon on
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Reply by Jay Polatnick
Many of the symptoms and resulting disease states are accurate, but you're bordering on 'fear-mongering'. OSA undoubtedly has a strong impact on mental deterioration, but many other factors are involved (fat-free diets, aluminum toxicity, etc)
After visiting a nursing home weekly for six years and observing those in the Alzheimer's unit and those in the "pre-Alzheimer's" unit, there is no doubt in my mind that OSA by itself is the leading cause of dementia.
I also have no doubt that OSA by itself leads to "high blood pressure, stroke, heart attack, cardiac arrhythmia, heart failure, sudden cardiac arrest, stroke, depression, bipolar disorder, psychopath (and the list goes on), or dead."
I have no appreciation for a meek approach to this serious, national health disaster.
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